I can see your point. But if you don't realize early that not every one can have and do the same things, then how do you navigate life as a strong person using what you do have. THAT BEING SAID, life is different these days, bullying is out of control, I don't have children in school anymore and some kids come to school looking more like they are going to a rock concert. I never advocate looking alike, but I guess maybe in my naivete individualism isn't working right now. Just sayin'

That's right, Linda...make everyone the same....good idea..while you're at it, let's give all kids in sports a trophy, even if they come in dead last. Let's give them nothing to strive for. Do me a favor, and leave the uniforms to the parochial kids. This is PUBLIC school, not PRIVATE school!

Uniforms won’t change bullies into kind children, or inattentive parents into good parents. If anything, shoe-horning every child into the same uniform will accentuate any little physical differences they might have, and make them more of a target for bullies.

I am concerned about our, "elected school committee members." One school committee member proudly claimed responsibility for creating a survey that is clearly extremely biased. A survey that is accompanied by a packet of papers with various opinions and articles in which school uniforms are attributed to a downturn in the crime rate. However, if you look at that period of time (1995-1999) there was a national decline in crime. I doubt that police and prosecutors would attribute the decrease in crime to "school uniforms". Within the packet there are pictures of students in uniforms, with one page stating in bold letters, "School Uniforms in Thailand - The Sexiest.." I think that parents that are upset at the current trends in fashion should take note of this article. Are we trading up individuality for sexy? I am concerned at the level of propaganda that has been distributed in this packet. While, it is true that we elect our school committee members it is important that they have the qualifying ability to make sound decisions that effect our students.

The Survey re: Mandatory Uniforms in the Malden Public Schools has extended the deadline to January 14th. You can take the survey on-line at https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NB2HB88
However the survey is VERY unbalanced—citing only pro-uniform studies. No mention was made of the studies that counter the supposed benefits of uniforms, and favor the benefits of parent/student choice and enforcing the current dress code. There was no mention of Mass State Regulation (Chapter 71, Section 83) prohibiting an enforced uniform policy, and no mention that the ACLU is opposed to public school uniforms. Please take the current survey, but be aware that it is leading, and perhaps request a more balance survey be distributed. Also... that survey excludes the Linden School. The Governing Board at the Linden is still debating whether or not to even give the parents input into the uniform issue. It may be decided by the Governing Board alone.

Yes and the male teachers should wear smae colored plaid kilts to so they blend in.

Sorry Jayne, I must have forgotten to link to it in the article: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NB2HB88

The Survey re: Mandatory Uniforms in the Malden Public Schools has extended the deadline to January 14th. You can take the survey on-line at https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NB2HB88
However the survey is VERY unbalanced—citing only pro-uniform studies. No mention was made of the studies that counter the supposed benefits of uniforms, and favor the benefits of parent/student choice and enforcing the current dress code. There was no mention of Mass State Regulation (Chapter 71, Section 83) prohibiting an enforced uniform policy, and no mention that the ACLU is opposed to public school uniforms. Please take the current survey, but be aware that it is leading, and perhaps request a more balance survey be distributed.

Very well put.

Karen, I didn't know my kids needed to 'compete'. They usually just put their clothes on, go to school, and 'compete' with other kids with their, I don't know....test scores! Kids have low tests scores, and we are worried about uniforms? Talk about screwed-up priorities.

I don't think it's about punishment. I hear what you are saying about the people who make comments regarding the cost of keeping up with trends. YOu are probably right, they have all that's going electronically out there. I for one cannot compete and me and my husband are hard working, tax paying home owners of Malden with 3 kids. I think there are pros and cons to uniforms and I for one am a fan of them.

Exactly, fivekids....it's laughable for some folks to cry about how they can't afford the best clothes for their kids, when they have Iphones. Why these kids need cell phones is beyond me!

you are exactly correct, 5 kds5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hear you. However the parents could just say no. Who is buying the clothes for the kids? You will need at least 2 uniforms for each child (until they outgrow them in 6 months). Plus, the school/city is obliged to provide uniforms for the children who can't afford them... which means less money for field trips, class-room supplies, extra-curricular activities... Are uniforms more important than those things? I don't think so.

You are so right. My children too do not agree but I wonder where they are hearing all that negativity. I know it's not from me. There are many other ways that kids can express themselves and opportunities to dress in "different attire" than at school. I know I look different when I go out to when I dress for work.

Again, Kelly....this is public school they are talking about. Guess who would be footing the bill for this? Joe the taxpayer!

I keep reading posts about inappropriately dressed teachers. Exactly what are the teachers wearing?

Yeah, a problem kid who wears a uniform, is far likely to deal drugs, and get expelled from school. Give me a break!

LOl, so T.J., making a kid wear a uniform is going to raise their test scores?

Agreed, Malden Kid. I'm all for sending a kid home for not dressing properly. They get sent home a few times in a quarter, then maybe the parents will smarten up when they see their kid fail the quarter from being sent home so much.

I agree. I see the kids at the Linden every day, and they always look great to me. I am opposed to a uniform policy too.

Apple is just wrong--as armost of the pro-uni posters here. First, only about 10 % of jobs require uns-not 80 %. The best jobs require at most dress codes; fastfood is the main job requiring unis. Second, MOST kids do NOT wear ripped jeans or revealing tops. NOR should slacks and dress shirts be required. MOST kids just weaR appropriate casual clothes like T-shirts and PROPER Jeans; they neither dress indecently NOR use schools as Fashion Shows as so many posters claim. SEE the PARENTS" anti-uni website--www.aprod.org

80% wow! That seems pretty high! Please let me know where you got those statistics. Yes. I agree with you the parents are to blame for allowing students to dress in an inappropriate manner. But, do you really think that parents who are not monitoring their children's dress are going to monitor uniforms? More importantly, it is not just the parents who are to blame for poor dress it is the direction that our society is going. Look at the latest fashions and adults(people over 18 years of age) are dressed in a manner that can be thought to be inappropriate. I drop my kids off and pick them up everyday and have seen very few students who are poorly dressed. There are dress codes and part of the learning experience of school is teaching our children what is considered appropriate and what is not. As a society we have to demand higher standards for our apparel, but this needs to start from the top down. Do not punish our students for what the clothing industry deems to be fashionable.

There is a dress code in place. Most of the children I see adhere to that. A Beebe teacher at the School Committee Meeting last night said that she used to teach at a private school which mandated uniforms. She said they spent as much time with uniform violation problems as they do now with dress code problems at the Beebe.

I'm opposed to forced uniforms too. I think that (within the parameters of the current dress code) it is up to the Parents/Students to decide what they wear.

Also... for every dollar the school/city spends on uniforms (they must supply them for families who can't afford them), the school/city is spending less money on class-room supplies, field trips, books, fun/education things for the kids to do, speakers... the list goes on. I don't think it is a good trade. No uniforms please.

LOl, dlanod. We could then silkscreen on the back of the jumpsuits "FDOC" (future department of corrections) :)

What is that supposed to mean?

JODI-see my earlier comment. The PROPER soplution is to ENFOIRCE A REGULAR DRESS CODE!. Kids should NOT be permitted to wear indecent clothes--but PUBLIC schools shouldn't punish kids wearing APPROPRIATE CASUAL CLOTHES-like clean, properly-fit Tshirts (NOT polos) or denim jeans (not slacks or khakis). MODERATION IS THE PROPER WAY.

I agree with Gary. There is a current dress code. I think most of the kids look appropriate and cute. My 5th grader suggested that perhaps the students who regularly ignore the current dress code be made to wear uniforms as a punishment. And the students who respect the dress code should be (in turn, treated with respect) and allowed to continue choosing their own clothes.

LOL Jodi more like 2 bandaids and a cork.

NO, BRENDAN. THIS CLAIM THAT MOST KIDS WANT TO USE SCHOOL AS A FASHION SHOW IS A WIDELY-HELD MYTH. Where it is partly true, he remedy is education and an anti-bullying code---NOT UNIFORMS.

I don't know, student. Give a kid a pair of Abercrombie jeans, and Air Jordan's....that will give him the self esteem to go nail the prom queen, get her pregnant, get her on welfare, and into subsidized housing. She will be poor, and be a drain on the welfare system, but dad will still have his self-esteem :)

Well put "student". I agree! Kids who behave respectably and don't abuse the current dress code should be treated with respect and allowed to continue choosing their own clothes.

Plus, forcing children into uniformed conformity is sending them an unhealthy message. It declares that being the same is good, and different is bad. It suggests they should be in lock-step with their peers. It does not nurture an appreciation of different cultures, tastes, styles, ways of thinking and different people.

Many parents are against a Mandatory Uniform Policy. Perhaps you can get some of your friends together to help oppose this from your end. The more the merrier!

If we get uniforms, what happens to the clothes already in my closet? I don't go out much on weekends. So are all my current clothes just going to sit there?

-- You can donate your clothes to the poor and needy and your clothes will not just sit there.
http://www.salvationarmyusa.org
http://www.redcross.org/charitable-donations

MEG--YOU ARE 100 PCT RIGHT. 90 PCT OF THE POSTERS HERE ARE DEAD WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

YEAH CAPS LOCK

Hi Meg. I said the same to "student" up above. Well put!

Also, kids who behave respectably and don't abuse the current dress code should be treated with respect and allowed to continue choosing their own clothes.

Plus, forcing children into uniformed conformity is sending them an unhealthy message. It declares that being the same is good, and different is bad. It suggests they should be in lock-step with their peers. It does not nurture an appreciation of different cultures, tastes, styles, ways of thinking and different people.

Many parents are against a Mandatory Uniform Policy. Perhaps you can get some of your friends together to help oppose this from your end. The more the merrier!

So, Vian, a uniform is going to get you into an Ivy League school then?

VIAN---OF COURSE YOU RE NOT THERE TO SHOW OFF FASHION---BUT HOW DOES THAT JUSTIFY UNIS?????????????????????///// SEE MY OTHER COMMENTS.

Thanks for you input Vian. You're right that learning is obviously more important than fashion.

But kids who behave respectably and don't abuse the current dress code should be treated with respect and allowed to continue choosing their own clothes.

We purchase our children’s clothes, then allow them to make their own choices, as long as they are respectful and polite, and follow the current dress code. We want them to be confident individuals and free thinkers who represent themselves well. This skill of choosing how to present oneself is very important. Every day, everyone must choose clothes that are appropriate for their planned activities (school, work, recreation…). Children should be taught/trusted to dress themselves appropriately. In fact, under the caring eyes of their parents/teachers is the perfect time to hone this valuable skill.

Mummy, mummy....can I rant? Please, please, please. I wanna rant like everyone else.

:)

Mark, as always, you're right. School uniforms are an easy response to deeply complex social issues that are broader than the reach of a school committee, like throwing potato chips at malnutrition.

There is no research data - beyond one flawed study in Long Beach, which of course the committee has clutched like a drowning man to a straw - that finds broad or lasting benefits to the imposition of school uniforms.

The school committee handed out a packet of oddly assembled and often-bizarre information about and arguments for uniforms, from which it's difficult to pick out the silliest points - but let me try: School uniforms, they argue, will make it easier to spot intruders in the building. I wonder, since almost all recent mass shootings have been committed by adults, if the committee might not consider putting the faculty and staff wear uniforms instead ... Or, perhaps - a stretch, I know - the schools could actually lock and monitor entrances.

Elected officials. Reminds you of the line attributed to Churchill, that democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others.

'putting the faculty and staff IN uniforms.' sorry.

MOST PEOPLE do NOT judge kids on what they wear. WHY do you believe all the myths on this blog?????????????????????????

Again, Donna....let's not focus on what kids wear to school. Let's worry more about awful test scores. As a previous poster said , there is ZERO valid studies that suggest kids who wear uniforms are going to be less judgmental than others. Use your head, Donna! Amen to that, Gary!

Hi Donna.
We are all concerned parents who want the best for our children. If that is you below, see my comments to you re: how it is great to teach your child to discount the opinions of mean kids. You did well. And as I stated before, uniforms won't turn nasty kids into kind kids. I teach my children: "Do you like that mean kid? NO. So who cares what they think about anything!" They laugh, but it is true.

We purchase our children’s clothes (very frugally), then allow them to make their own choices, as long as they are respectful and polite, and follow the current dress code. We want them to be confident individuals and free thinkers who represent themselves well. This skill of choosing how to present oneself is very important. Every day, everyone must choose clothes that are appropriate for their planned activities (school, work, recreation…). Children should be taught/trusted to dress themselves appropriately. In fact, under the caring eyes of their parents/teachers is the perfect time to hone this valuable skill.

Everyone must also deal with nasty, small minded people throughout their lives. Hopefully as infrequently as possible, but when is a better time to teach your children how to deal with bullies? My kids go to the Linden. I don't spend a lot on clothes. They have never had trouble. Most kids are nice. Most kids don't care what the others are wearing.

what is wrong with t-shirts and blue jeans in public schools????????????????????????????????

Great idea Apple....YOU CAN PAY FOR ALL OF THOSE, since you're such a fan of the idea.

I agree completely with this fundamental question, as well as pose the question,"What problem/situation is this in response to?" And then, logically, where is the data that shows uniforms solve it.There are dress codes. My children follow them. If all the kids wearing the clothes as described here were held to the established dress code, would we need to look at this? I also want to know what will be the repercussion for noncompliance. Most teachers do dress appropriately, but I hate to say I have seen teachers in low cut tank tops, flip flops, jeans, non-collared shirts on the men and Converse sneakers. And in some cases, they have been some of the best teachers my kids have ever had! Uniforms will not completely take away "clothes" bullying. Kids will still have backpacks, outside jackets, shoes, etc and will also exist outside of the school. There are also bullying procedures, so if a child is being bullied for their clothes, the school should be following up on that.

yes they need to get stricter on dress codes; why do think unis will work if dress codes won't???????????????????/////////

Anyone know what 'sneskers' are? Anyone?

Uniforms won't make those mean kids be nice.

You are right to teach your daughter to value herself not what others may or may not think about the name on her shoes. I see this time while the kids are in school as a good time to learn not to care about what nasty people think. If they learn to be happy with themselves and what they have (and not try and impress nasty judgmental people), they will have a happier life for it. If they all had uniforms, you would lose that teaching/learning opportunity. You did a great job.

I am opposed to uniforms, because I think that (within the parameters of the current dress code), it should be up the the Parents/Children what they wear.

YOUR DAUGHTER MUST LEARN THAT IN A CAPITALIST SOCIETY, SOME WILL ALWAYS HAVE MORE THAN OTHERS. But the kids who teASED her must be punished for BULLYING

Thank you Mike!

Thanks for your input Dining Dad.

Uniforms for Sports Teams is fine with me. Those kids/parents are choosing to be on that team, and it is necessary to help distinguish one team from another during a game. But we are talking about public school, not a sports team.

Forcing children into uniformed conformity is sending them an unhealthy message. It declares that being the same is good, and different is bad. It suggests they should be in lock-step with their peers. It does not nurture an appreciation of different cultures, tastes, styles, ways of thinking and different people. Kids who behave respectably and don't abuse the current dress code should be treated with respect and allowed to continue choosing their own clothes. It is a Parent/Student issue. It is not the place of the school or city to dictate what my child wears, as long as they are abiding by the societal norm (dress code).

Plus, speaking of sports... and other activities: If they mandate uniforms, the city/school system is responsible to buy uniforms for every child who can't afford them. Every dollar spent on those uniforms is a dollar we are taking away from sports, classroom supplies, field trips, school activities, speakers, music, art, books... you name it. Do you think the (widely disputed) benefits of mandating uniforms is worth the price of some of those other things? They money has to come from somewhere.

It's all just ridiculous, Kay, isn't it. Some of these knuckleheads are more concerned with what other kids are wearing, and NONE mentioned kids awful test scores! Like a uniform is going to change a kid's demeanor. Just ridiculous!

pro-uni people don't realize unis are "SOCIALIZED CLOTHING"

Nah Its more fun on here to bash. Just leave me alone Im a nice guy.Besides all my brats are grown up and dont have to worry about uniforms. But JOE you are correct we should find out who started this. This is like the trash bag deal they voted when everyone was on summer vacation. If a kid comes to school he or she with butt crack showin they pay a fine,foulmouths pay a fine,bullying is a fine. Hit the moms n dads in the pockets and youll see how fast things will get corrected. Toughen Up and Tighten up. The three strikes your out works as well. Cant follow the rules come back next year when you can.

Ana---I left NYC at age 5. But I am quite sure they had NO uni program there at all until 10 yrs ago. And even now, whole schools OR individual parents can opt out--
the same as in Mass., If your parentsw made you wearformal clothes, that is THEIR privilege--but not the government's. The latter is what this blog is all about.
Several posters have asked who started this campaign. FYI, all across the nation, stupid parents and school Supts are proposing mand unis---even expelling straight A kids who refuse to wear polos and khakis!!!! Even in Mass, despite contra state law, students i Springfield, Lowell & Lawrence are forced to wear unis. Some districts--especially in the South--have spent MILLIONS of $$ to win lawsuits filed by parents who want to choose their kids' cothes.,. Schools win 95% of the cases!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's clear from your post that your children don't attend the Malden Public Schools (or they're in the Charter School). So, you're looking in from the outside and ridiculing the system, our kids, & our parenting. I've been on every field trip & parent/teachers night, to every art show and concert & every one of my kids' events. I've volunteered in the classrooms & pick my kids up from school every day. I've found the children & the teachers to be delightful. I grew up in Malden & have always loved it. I bought a house here because, no... this isn't the community I grew up in... it's better. All this curmudgeonly "kids today" grumbling is just absurd. I came back because of the rich ethnic/cultural/religious & racial diversity. I embrace the differences, the tapestry of colors, styles & cuisines. My kids go to the public school proudly, & those schools are a reflection of the city & the world we live in today. It is a microcosm. Why would you want to make everyone look the same? Also, why would a child derive pride from a uniform? We teach our children to be proud because they are kind, smart, honorable & try their hardest. They also know to ignore nasty people (children or adults). We are proud of our family, school, heritage, work ethic & accomplishments. Deriving pride from your clothes is just silly, whether uniforms or designer frocks. I'm on this post because this uniform mandate would directly effect me, my kids & their school. You're free to be here, but why are you?

You actually *don't* see it first-hand, because you're not experiencing it, unless you're putting on a uniform and attending school with your child. Which would be pretty creepy.

To Joe---------MOST kids dress for common sense; that is why 90 pct of ..kids jiust wear cheap casuial tees and jeans most days. For those FEW who want to use school for a fashion show, or to bully others, a COMBO OF EDUCATION & DISCIPLINE is the answer---------NOT UNIFORMS FOR ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To GARY: Shouting emails isn't changing anyone's mind about anything, except to wonder a little as to your motives. Don't know where you're pulling in your 90% numbers that you toss out left and right.
Unless you're a qualified educator or school committee member, your loud suggestions for intense discipline of children sounds creepy on this forum. So please stop with the bullying of others, that disagree with you. We get it. You don't want uniforms on children. Go vote or something and change the school committee members, if you don't want uniforms to happen. I hear that elections are happening this year. Do something, if you are really passionate about this issue. <grin>

Hi Joe. As I commented below to Krissy:

I am a frugal shopper and don't spend much on clothes, though the kids always look good. I say "no" if they ask for a super expensive thing, or I suggest they save their money to buy it themselves. I tell them it is impractical to pay a ton of money for shoes/sneakers/clothes they are going to outgrow in a few months. I'm teaching them to be smart with their buying choices and their money. And, I'm teaching them how ridiculous it is to be hung up on things like clothing labels. I point out that anyone who is (and especially those who are snobby or mean about it) are acting pretty shallow and vapid, and maybe aren't worth a second thought. They seem to agree.

I was at the School Committee meeting on the subject and someone asked Krissy's question about if they had kids in school. I could be wrong, but I think only one did, and they were at the Charter School... so... hmph...

I will say that out of the 8 School Committee members, 4 have either sent me email or approached me to say that they were opposed to uniforms or leaning towards being opposed. Don't know if they were playing politics or sincere. I guess we'll see how they vote (if it comes to that). I also know that the subcommittee looking into this has only one parent. She is a lovely woman, but very much in favor of uniforms... so it is not really a balanced group.

I'm with you Krissy O. Spot on about the cost. I am a frugal shopper and don't spend much on clothes, though the kids always look cute. I say "no" if they ask for a super expensive thing, or I suggest they save their money to buy it themselves. I tell them it is impractical to pay a ton of money for shoes/sneakers they are going to outgrow in a few months. I'm teaching them to be smart with their buying choices and their money. And, I'm teaching them how ridiculous it is to be hung up on things like clothing labels. I point out that anyone who is (and especially those who are snobby or mean about it) are acting pretty shallow and vapid, and maybe aren't worth a second thought. They seem to agree.

I was at the School Committee meeting on the subject and someone asked your question about if they had kids in school. I could be wrong, but I think only one did, and they were at the Charter School... so... hmph... I will say that out of the 8 School Committee members, 4 have either sent me email or approached me to say that they were opposed to uniforms or leaning towards being opposed. Don't know if they were playing politics or sincere. I guess we'll see how they vote (if it comes to that). I also know that the subcommittee looking into this has only one parent. She is a lovely woman, but very much in favor of uniforms... so it is not really a balanced group.

Massachusetts General Law states, "School officials shall not abridge the rights of students as to personal dress and appearance except if such officials determine that such personal dress and appearance violate reasonable standards of health, safety and cleanliness."Our kids have good test scores and are not sick, our schools do not have huge problems with gangs or violence and our kids are not dirty. I was at a meeting the other night when the superintendent said that he did not feel one way or another about school uniforms, but proceeded to provide all of the "positives". He had an opinion! I think that we, citizens of Malden, are being pushed into this by officials who want to parochialize our community. As a parent it would be far easier to have my kids in uniform and not have to "think" about what they are going to wear and how they dress. But, that is part of the growth process; using dress to define style. I keep my kids in public education because I want them to be exposed to all people not just kids who look and dress like them. In Malden we have some cultural differences in which kids do dress differently and I have brought my kids up to embrace that diversity. In fact it is the diversity that keeps me in Malden. If kids make fun of kids for what they are wearing then we need to teach tolerance and enforce the bullying policy. I believe it is a racist and bigoted decision to enforce school uniforms and I hope that the school committee agrees with me.

Hi Dawn & All.
The extremely slanted survey, which spoke only of the debatable benefits of school uniforms, then spoon fed those same supposed benefits back to the surveyed in the form of questions... has been tallied. Not surprisingly, they say 62% of the parents welcomes school uniforms. As I wrote at the beginning of January when they first sent the survey home (4 days before it was due):

"... the survey is VERY unbalanced—citing only pro-uniform studies. No mention was made of the studies that counter the supposed benefits of uniforms, and favor the benefits of parent/student choice and enforcing the current dress code. There was no mention of Mass State Regulation (Chapter 71, Section 83) prohibiting an enforced uniform policy, and no mention that the ACLU is opposed to public school uniforms. Please take the current survey, but be aware that it is leading, and perhaps request a more balance survey be distributed."

Although I requested a new and balanced survey, my request fell on deaf ears it seems.

Hi Joe. I don't put much faith in the results of that VERY unbalanced survey—citing only pro-uniform studies. No mention was made of the studies that counter the supposed benefits of uniforms, and favor the benefits of parent/student choice and enforcing the current dress code. There was no mention of Mass State Regulation (Chapter 71, Section 83) prohibiting an enforced uniform policy, and no mention that the ACLU is opposed to public school uniforms. That survey was leading, and although I requested a more balance survey be distributed, I have yet to see it.

Also, there was a 4 day turnaround for that survey. Only after I made a issue of the too soon due date, did they extend the survey for just one week. As far as I know there were no translations out there for ESL parents either. It seems like less of a true attempt to gather people's opinions, and more of an attempt to "convince" people of to accept uniforms.

I am extremely disappointed in this whole process, the apparent lack of common sense, and the lack of answers when questioned about the financial burdens the city will face, which will surely cause a reduction in the number of field trips, school supplies, classroom equipment, ... the list goes on and on.

If you are in favor of uniforms, are you volunteering to pay for the uniforms for all the children who can't afford them? Because if you aren't, the school MUST pay, taking the money away from other more beneficial educational endeavors.

Uh Robin... I'm actually on your side. Re-read my post. I want the school committee vote to go against uniforms. Not that anyone will listen to little old me. But I agree that city-wide school unforms is probably not a good idea. No compelling arguments for school uniforms, just heart string meandering argumenst that it's "probably" good for the children. I don't buy into emotional arguments like that easily. This will disrupt a lot of families on a large scale and annoy many constituents. Some will get to put this on their resume and not be responsible for showing concrete results in the long term.